I would like to dispel what I see as some myths about western guys here

[BelleZeBoob]

It is nearly impossible to make any money and keep it in the FSU.

I wouldn't say so. It may be nearly impossible to keep REALLY BIG money in the FSU.

Better say that in Russia, an American may find it problematic to earn money that would allow him or her to live decently, by the standards that he or she is used to live. There are just not many well paying jobs, for which one should have a fine labor market value. For English speakers, it is mostly teaching jobs. Everyone knows how they are usually paid.

 Even if we take a corporate executive who enjoys every kind of company perks, handsome paycheck would not compensate for bad ecology, dreadful water, dangerous pavements on the streets, non-responsive state officers, rude salespeople, etc, etc.

[BelleZeBoob]

But I was more or less curious as to what most USSR women thought they were going to find in Western Guys, and how they would figure that a guy from an outside culture would be better for them as opposed to simply walking down the street and finding a Russian guy?
  

Because if we take a Russian guy from the street, we are likely to stumble onto a character who has been formed by living a life under abnormal conditions. It made therefore an impact on his whole personality. Hard life took his toll on him, his parents and siblings, and even his genes that about to being or not being passed to next generations.

Russian men work hard but poorly rewarded for that. They are permanently humiliated by the stronger or more powerful members of society. They don't believe and don't respect law and order. Are skilled in bribery. Etc., etc. All this formed a certai mentality, and almost became a part of national culture. Remember the movie ' The Shawshank Redemption'? Not everyone is like Andy Dufresne, who has been able to preserve himself under ANY conditions. Many are like 'Red' with his prison mentality. Often it's not them but Russian system who kills.

Of course, not all Russian guys are sort of damaged characters. Some are lucky to live a relatively good life. However, girls and women compete hard for such a few good apples.

In Western men, Russian women probably hope to find just normal people who are used to live in normal life conditions.

[American Avenger]

Because if we take a Russian guy from the street, we are likely to stumble onto a character who has been formed by living a life under abnormal conditions. It made therefore an impact on his whole personality. Hard life took his toll on him, his parents and siblings, and even his genes that about to being or not being passed to next generations.

Russian men work hard but poorly rewarded for that. They are permanently humiliated by the stronger or more powerful members of society. They don't believe and don't respect law and order. Are skilled in bribery. Etc., etc. All this formed a certai mentality, and almost became a part of national culture. Remember the movie ' The Shawshank Redemption'? Not everyone is like Andy Dufresne, who has been able to preserve himself under ANY conditions. Many are like 'Red' with his prison mentality. Often it's not them but Russian system who kills.

So basically what you are saying is most of these guys were ground into the dirt by the soviet system. This is why I fear some of the current reforms in the US that seem to be heading toward socialism.

I wouldn't say so. It may be nearly impossible to keep REALLY BIG money in the FSU.

Could you define that a little more fully?

For English speakers, it is mostly teaching jobs. Everyone knows how they are usually paid.

The friend that is going to the Ukraine mentioned that.

 Even if we take a corporate executive who enjoys every kind of company perks, handsome paycheck would not compensate for bad ecology, dreadful water, dangerous pavements on the streets, non-responsive state officers, rude salespeople, etc, etc.

Sounds as if with all the reforms, some of the same problems still exist from Soviet times.

One of the things I have noticed in photos of the USSR countries is there seems to be very little free standing housing, and mostly apartment complexes or housing complexes simular to what are in Chicago for public housing.

So how difficult is it to purchase land and erect buildings, or residences?

[American Avenger]

My wife wasn't looking for a Western guy, but prayed for a good husband. If it was as easy finding a good husband as walking down the street, she would have been married long before I ever met her.

I can't speak for all of "them" but my wife would certainly answer love and a husband

Sounds like you got a great wife Rasputin.  

[Rasputin]

Sounds like you got a great wife Rasputin. 

I do 

[BelleZeBoob]

BelleZeBoob

I wouldn't say so. It may be nearly impossible to keep REALLY BIG money in the FSU.

Could you define that a little more fully?

 

In Russia, human ressources have traditionally been of little value. Therefore, a person, whether a professional with years of education, or a handworker traditionally get a salary that would allow them to afford only basic things in life. Under Soviets, salaries were mostly pocket money sized, as the idea was something like the state is supposed to take care of you and to dispose over your life. This formed a sort of basis for traditionally low work compensation in Russia.

Everyone of you knows how are professionals as lawyers and doctors financially rewarded in the U.S. One of the reasons is probably that they spend years of their lives and lots of efforts in order to get themselves educated and trained. This is not the case in Russia. In turn, it lead to a basic understanding among Russians that big money can not be EARNED in the FSU.

If not earned, big money in Russia are normally obtained in other ways than earning. Often they come through unique access to some rare and few resources. By definition, such access cannot be earned but obtained throuth other means which vary, and also by definition, may be obtained by less than straighforward and honest ways.

It leads us to a conclusion that rich Russians may have been less than honest in the past. That makes them vulnerable. If they made some infringements against rules, they can be made responsible for that. Rat eats rat, as they say. Now we have people who do their best to conceal their wealth. Sounds logical?

[msmoby]

I guess there is only one way to settle this little debate.

We should drop a line to Putin himself and set up a meeting with him so >>YOU,<< can explain the inferiority of Russian manhood to both him and his Spetsnaz face to face.

LOL!

It was good knowing you man, we will see you on the other side.  

Matey, I worked along side an ex-Spetnaz Major [ for 4 years] who is build like a brick out-house, and we discussed this topic MANY times and I've 'survived'....

http://www.*Unapproved Link*1402051757/sizes/m/



 You got a REALLY well put together response from Belle - re FSU men.... and then demonstrated possible 'political naivety ' [ or is it paranoia ] by making this a 'America is going commie' issue ! You will feel 'happy' on this thread..

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=3949.0

1/ I note you didn't respond to my - have you BEEN there? - [ FSU] clearly not, judging by your response..

2/ Many FSU guys have had problems adjusting to the new 'system' - which in many ways is less supportive, socially, than many western countries


Belle - THANKS for your insight and AA, thanks for [sort of ]  raising the topic !

[Herrie]

American Avenger-> Can you please use the Quote button? I've been busy 15 minutes fixing all your quotes in this topic. The Quote button isn't there for nothing 

[RG]

However, if we take the middle or upper middle class men, my belief would be that in these circles, the jerks would not be many. The reason is that a typical middle class person has achieved quite a lot in his life, and definitely has something to lose in case he occasionally misbehaves.

The term “Middle Class” is a very broad term in the United States. If you ask any person on the street what class they belong to, they will answer “Middle Class”, so for the most part it is a meaningless term here.

So I will assume what you are talking about is moderately wealthy men. In which case if he is moderately wealthy, the more money he actually has, the less he has to lose for misbehavior if he is willing to buy his way out of it.

Case and point, Bill Clinton or OJ Simpson.

The up side may be, that most of the guys who seem to be here are just average guys looking for a less bratty wife than he could find in the States. Just an assumption on my part, though so don’t bank on that statement. But I doubt if any of them classify as moderately wealthy.

I am fairly certain that your own definition of "moderately wealthy" is skewed.  Look up the salary statistics from the US government - they should know, after all, no?   According to that, my income places me in the top 5%.  However, I would say I am certainly in the middle class.

I also don't believe anyone is portraying Western Men as perfect by any means, nor FSU Men as bad - there are no absolutes.  I have communicated with plenty of materialistic or "bitchy" FSUW, as well as met in person, several very good FSU men (and women).  I have also read posts from Western Men that nearly make me ashamed to be a Western Man.

So what?  You will find all kinds everywhere.  However, it still remains valid that in percentages, there may be greater tendencies towards certain behaviors in women of different countries (or the men).  I don't believe anyone is saying that all FSU women are better than all Western women, nor all Western men are "better" than all FSU men; if they are, then they are quite foolish.

[RG]

But I was more or less curious as to what most USSR women thought they were going to find in Western Guys, and how they would figure that a guy from an outside culture would be better for them as opposed to simply walking down the street and finding a Russian guy?
  

Because if we take a Russian guy from the street, we are likely to stumble onto a character who has been formed by living a life under abnormal conditions. It made therefore an impact on his whole personality. Hard life took his toll on him, his parents and siblings, and even his genes that about to being or not being passed to next generations.

Russian men work hard but poorly rewarded for that. They are permanently humiliated by the stronger or more powerful members of society. They don't believe and don't respect law and order. Are skilled in bribery. Etc., etc. All this formed a certai mentality, and almost became a part of national culture. Remember the movie ' The Shawshank Redemption'? Not everyone is like Andy Dufresne, who has been able to preserve himself under ANY conditions. Many are like 'Red' with his prison mentality. Often it's not them but Russian system who kills.

Of course, not all Russian guys are sort of damaged characters. Some are lucky to live a relatively good life. However, girls and women compete hard for such a few good apples.

In Western men, Russian women probably hope to find just normal people who are used to live in normal life conditions.

Great post, Belle. ::
Of course, Western mens environment has the ability to give tendencies towards different, but possibly equally unattractive behavior, as well.  Environment and options can certainly influence tendencies in behavior, while people from both/any places can also remain "themself," even if not the norm for wherever they may live.

[RG]

As a result, I would like to believe, that it is not possible to stereotype what the man who is searching for an FSU woman is like based on "opinions" of what the "Average American guy" is like. I would like to believe they do not include the percentage of men who are criminals for example (at least they should not be able to get visas if they are).

I would agree that it is not.  While there may be overlapping character traits for many of those looking outside the Western world as an option, people are not so easily grouped.  Even if the median age may be >= 40 (or some other number), that does not imply other similarities of character, at least not down to relevant details, such as those that may or may not make someone a suitable match for an FSUW, IMO.

[American Avenger]

American Avenger-> Can you please use the Quote button? I've been busy 15 minutes fixing all your quotes in this topic. The Quote button isn't there for nothing 

I generally do not use the quote button, i just insert the HTML Tags myself.
I really don't see a problem because it comes up as a quote when i post?

QUOTE

I'm just not used to using a quote button?

[alenika]

Is it discussion that none is perfect? Does it mean someone thought they were?

[American Avenger]

BelleZeBoob

I wouldn't say so. It may be nearly impossible to keep REALLY BIG money in the FSU.

Could you define that a little more fully?

 

In Russia, human ressources have traditionally been of little value. Therefore, a person, whether a professional with years of education, or a handworker traditionally get a salary that would allow them to afford only basic things in life. Under Soviets, salaries were mostly pocket money sized, as the idea was something like the state is supposed to take care of you and to dispose over your life. This formed a sort of basis for traditionally low work compensation in Russia.

Everyone of you knows how are professionals as lawyers and doctors financially rewarded in the U.S. One of the reasons is probably that they spend years of their lives and lots of efforts in order to get themselves educated and trained. This is not the case in Russia. In turn, it lead to a basic understanding among Russians that big money can not be EARNED in the FSU.

If not earned, big money in Russia are normally obtained in other ways than earning. Often they come through unique access to some rare and few resources. By definition, such access cannot be earned but obtained throuth other means which vary, and also by definition, may be obtained by less than straighforward and honest ways.

It leads us to a conclusion that rich Russians may have been less than honest in the past. That makes them vulnerable. If they made some infringements against rules, they can be made responsible for that. Rat eats rat, as they say. Now we have people who do their best to conceal their wealth. Sounds logical?

Thanks for your thoughtful commentary on this subject BelleZeBoob.

I think you have verified what i suspected but never really knew about the details of what killed the USSR.

I think you are also right about the difference in view point on the creation of wealth regarding the west and east in how we view human resources.

All wealth is basically created by humans so rewarding those individuals with the tools they need, allows them to create better and more wealth.

Ayn Rand wrote various novels on this subject, and seems to have some very sound points in that respect. 

[American Avenger]

Oh BelleZeBoob
PS.
Hope you find yourself a nice Western Guy to be with. Im sure if you keep searching you find the right one who is compatible with you.

[Herrie]

American Avenger-> Can you please use the Quote button? I've been busy 15 minutes fixing all your quotes in this topic. The Quote button isn't there for nothing 

I generally do not use the quote button, i just insert the HTML Tags myself.
I really don't see a problem because it comes up as a quote when i post?

QUOTE

I'm just not used to using a quote button?

Yes QUOTE works, however it doesn't mention the "original author". You can add author=Herrie for example before the ] and it will add the "author" in the quote tag. Using the quote button as advantage has that it would link directly to the post you're referring to

[Manny]

American Avenger-> Can you please use the Quote button? I've been busy 15 minutes fixing all your quotes in this topic. The Quote button isn't there for nothing 

I generally do not use the quote button, i just insert the HTML Tags myself.
I really don't see a problem because it comes up as a quote when i post?

QUOTE

I'm just not used to using a quote button?

Yes QUOTE works, however it doesn't mention the "original author". You can add author=Herrie for example before the ] and it will add the "author" in the quote tag. Using the quote button as advantage has that it would link directly to the post you're referring to

The Quotes ABC is here: http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=5068.msg124781#msg124781

[Donhollio]

I personally am a single American guy, but at this time im not really looking to get marred.

Ah, you must be looking for the 'adventure' part of this forum ?

 Found right here Mr. Avenger

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=1578.0  
  

Because if we take a Russian guy from the street, we are likely to stumble onto a character who has been formed by living a life under abnormal conditions. It made therefore an impact on his whole personality. Hard life took his toll on him, his parents and siblings, and even his genes that about to being or not being passed to next generations.

 Russian men work hard but poorly rewarded for that. They are permanently humiliated by the stronger or more powerful members of society. They don't believe and don't respect law and order. Are skilled in bribery. Etc., etc. All this formed a certai mentality, and almost became a part of national culture. Remember the movie ' The Shawshank Redemption'? Not everyone is like Andy Dufresne, who has been able to preserve himself under ANY conditions. Many are like 'Red' with his prison mentality. Often it's not them but Russian system who kills.

So basically what you are saying is most of these guys were ground into the dirt by the soviet system. This is why I fear some of the current reforms in the US that seem to be heading toward socialism.

 Ohh no , not another Yank fearing socialism.   :  Fight it s long as you can ! Take up arms and overthrow the government if needed ! But whatever happens don't let socialism get it's foot into the USA health kick'em to the curb care.

 Here's a hint, these girls depending on age have either been in the social system, or they have heard how it was from older citizens. Telling them about your fears of having Mr. Govt look after the sick, poor and hungry will not go over very well with them. You see their lives aren't all cosy like ours, and if they could get their parents Rx's cheaper, and have a healthcare system that acually works above a 3rd world level.
 Only the USA is hell bent on capitalism, I know I take huge comfort in knowing I have government funded healthcare, without the stress of a future illness requiring me to give the hospital my home to cover the operating costs.

[American Avenger]

I personally am a single American guy, but at this time im not really looking to get marred.

Ah, you must be looking for the 'adventure' part of this forum ?

 Found right here Mr. Avenger

http://ruadventures.com/forum/index.php?topic=1578.0  
  

Because if we take a Russian guy from the street, we are likely to stumble onto a character who has been formed by living a life under abnormal conditions. It made therefore an impact on his whole personality. Hard life took his toll on him, his parents and siblings, and even his genes that about to being or not being passed to next generations.

 Russian men work hard but poorly rewarded for that. They are permanently humiliated by the stronger or more powerful members of society. They don't believe and don't respect law and order. Are skilled in bribery. Etc., etc. All this formed a certai mentality, and almost became a part of national culture. Remember the movie ' The Shawshank Redemption'? Not everyone is like Andy Dufresne, who has been able to preserve himself under ANY conditions. Many are like 'Red' with his prison mentality. Often it's not them but Russian system who kills.

So basically what you are saying is most of these guys were ground into the dirt by the soviet system. This is why I fear some of the current reforms in the US that seem to be heading toward socialism.

 Ohh no , not another Yank fearing socialism.   :  Fight it s long as you can ! Take up arms and overthrow the government if needed ! But whatever happens don't let socialism get it's foot into the USA health kick'em to the curb care.

 Here's a hint, these girls depending on age have either been in the social system, or they have heard how it was from older citizens. Telling them about your fears of having Mr. Govt look after the sick, poor and hungry will not go over very well with them. You see their lives aren't all cosy like ours, and if they could get their parents Rx's cheaper, and have a healthcare system that acually works above a 3rd world level.
 Only the USA is hell bent on capitalism, I know I take huge comfort in knowing I have government funded healthcare, without the stress of a future illness requiring me to give the hospital my home to cover the operating costs.

What the hell is wrong with you fool?
LOL?

You are quoting a Russian Woman describing >>HER Views<< not mine. Which I copy and pasted.

Besides why do you care what sort of health care system the US has?
Especially if YOU are not under it??

[ECR844]

What the hell is wrong with you fool?
LOL?

"Donhollio," isn't a fool;and yet it appears you're shaping up to be a troll...LOL!

[American Avenger]

Not at the moment.
But Troll is a matter of opinion generally of a Mod that follows a Site Policy.

And yes i do realize the site policy can reflect any thing the site creator wants.

But if I am going to be called on the carpet then the others here who are Flaming and Bating in this thread should be as well should be as well.

[alenika]

Is it discussion that none is perfect? Does it mean someone thought they were?

Seems some do.

[BelleZeBoob]

Oh BelleZeBoob
PS.
Hope you find yourself a nice Western Guy to be with. Im sure if you keep searching you find the right one who is compatible with you.

Thanks Avenger. I am quietly looking. Soon I move to Canada, exporting myself on my own, and am eager to make friends with fine Canadians and Americans alike

[Boris]

"So basically what you are saying is most of these guys were ground into the dirt by the soviet system. This is why I fear some of the current reforms in the US that seem to be heading toward socialism."

These are your words, AA? Yes?

[American Avenger]

Oh BelleZeBoob
PS.
Hope you find yourself a nice Western Guy to be with. Im sure if you keep searching you find the right one who is compatible with you.

Thanks Avenger. I am quitely looking. Soon I move to Canada, exporting myself on my own, and am eager to make friends with fine Canadians and Americans alike

Well my personal opinion is there is probably no guaranteed way of finding a mate. Nor are cultural barriers insurmountable if both parties are willing to make an effort.
but i do think it takes a bit planning, common since and just old fashion good luck.

In any case you seem like a nice, and quite Intelligent lady, I would think the odds should be in your favor.

On the USA vs USSR thing it is my opinion that both countries had what amounted to a Civic Religion which were fed in large to the people by the media. There is a individual named Dmitry Orlov, who was born in the USSR and emigrated to the US at age 12. He returned to the USSR during the Collapse of the Soviet Union.

He has some interesting takes on the current state of the US and he makes some comparisons between the two.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

I have read his book and agree with him on some of his points, but i disagree with some of his arguments in regard to how fast the oil and gas will run out, and that we will return to a state of less technology.

In any case Welcome to the Western World